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    You bitter bro?

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    Ridley
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    You bitter bro?

    Post by Ridley on Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:35 pm


    I love having conversations like this.
    Also, any and all comments are welcome (I won't get hurt at anything negative you may say about my reasonings/beliefs, I'm so used to other people's negativity and etc so no hard feelings to any of you, specially since you're friends first)



    Allen Sarkisyan not braincells, just time. enjoy having an unproductive hobby that will never benefit you in the future. readingbooks master race ^_^

    Adrian Alvarado no. false. its something that if you have a passion for can make you a happier person in general, something to strive for. something to even brag about. my shit guitar, my standard Squier makes me happy. because its something i love to do, and well in my opinion, thats good enough

    Markham Scott What good is a future that produces no bit of satisfaction for you?

    Allen Sarkisyan Playing a guitar for the hell of it is the same as spending hours with video games. No practical benefits unless you give yourself a bullshit benefit like "herp derp eye coordination" or whatever the musical equivalent is

    Adrian Alvarado i honestly couldnt give less of a fuck about my "bullshit" benifet...i just enjoy something. if you enjoy video games woopdy motherfuckin do. have fun. ill have fun with my guitar. what do you do in free time?

    Allen Sarkisyan good to see you admitting that you have a bullshit hobby. I am satisfied with my sadistic side for the day.

    Adrian Alvarado no im saying about the "bullshit" benifet. which is the "herp derp hand eye coordination"...which is actually an extremely useful talent. its just something i enjoy? i dont give a rats ass if you dont, but its not necessary to try to discourage people from something they enjoy.

    Markham Scott You honestly can't find any way to make a life happy and worthwhile for yourself can you allen?

    Allen Sarkisyan My butt aches every time I make a website, my asshole bleeds every time I finish a book, my asscheeks quiver at the sign of a finished CAD model, my anal beeds just can't quite handle all of this progress so I guess, at least for my anus, l...ife isn't happy or worthwhile. As for me, I like the idea of not wasting a shitton of time on fruitless ventures. Some people on the other hand can't give 2 fucks about how they spend their time and will waste it as much as they like on whatever they want to waste it on: for you it would be playing shitty instruments like the other hipsters in bands you've never heard of and will never hear of.
    Enjoy your extremely useful benefit of tossing a ball straight.

    Adrian Alvarado Do you enjoy doing those things? by the way im taking ALL honors classes, and im skipping years in math and science...so dont say i waste all my time, because i actually get shit done.

    Markham Scott Tsk tsk tsk, you have my pity allen =/

    Adrian Alvarado your anus has mine...it sounds like something horrid in there

    Allen Sarkisyan Yeah, reading is fun. Yeah getting $$$ through web coding is fun. Yeah building robots is fun.
    You don't get what I mean Adrian, honors classes and productive and useful stuff like that isn't wasting time.
    Playing the guitar is as useless as playing video games. That's basically what I'm shooting for. Scott is butthurt

    Markham Scott I'm butthurt? how so? I'm just reflecting your lonely, self-centered bitterness

    Adrian Alvarado yea well i understand im just saying, guitar is a hobby, its something i do on my free time. just something to pass time. i happen to love music. i get my important shit done, then i enjoy excess time

    Allen Sarkisyan ‎@scott, A person concerned about not wasting their time? ZOMG INFIDEL! SELF CENTERED BEAST! KILL IT WITH FIRE D:

    Markham Scott What truly is a waste of time? Just because someone enjoys using their spare time in different ways that do no harm to others whatsoever doesn't make it valueless. King David of ancient times spent his spare time writing and playing melodies to Jehovah and others. Was that truly a waste of time?

    Markham Scott Since you are such an avid reader, perhaps you'd enjoy reading some of these melodies in the bible in the book of psalms =D.

    Allen Sarkisyan wasting time: unproductive hobbies and activities that don't benefit anyone in any useful manner.
    that pretty much shoots into musical instruments, gaming, all forms of entertainment (unless you sell your music/games/hand-made dildos to some hipsters for profiting in which case you benefit yourself), and a ton of other stuff

    Allen Sarkisyan and no I don't waste my time with religion

    Markham Scott why is religion a time waster?

    Allen Sarkisyan I'm an atheist, do the math

    Markham Scott There's math behind Atheism? I assumed it was just sheer rejection/denial. Anyway, my time is far from wasted and my life couldn't have been any more benefited from being brought up in a christian lifestyle as a Jehovah's Witness. Would you care for me to explain?

    Markham Scott Oh come now, don't walk away from this conversation just yet.

    Adrian Alvarado so...have you ever found a girl attractive?

    Allen Sarkisyan I've been wondering for a while now and I just can't decide. Who's more fun to troll on a sidewalk? A scientologist or a jehovah's witness? I have a jehovah's friend and she's batshit crazy so I can see why I thoroughly enjoy arguing with you.

    Allen Sarkisyan But then again why go to the sidewalk when you guys just walk up to my doorstep anyway?

    Adrian Alvarado oh then you were wasting your time wondering about this, because it doesnt benefit you in any use manner

    Markham Scott You avoided my question =D. And hey, who wouldn't want to share good news of the hope of everlasting hope of a new paradise earth?

    Markham Scott Again I ask, would you like to hear the benefits my life has had as a born and raised Jehovah's Witness?

    Allen Sarkisyan I'm wondering, where do you think the Earth is in relation to the Sun?

    Allen Sarkisyan No, would you like to hear the benefits of not being coerced by churches and religion? Not being told HURR SINNNNNN and not being told "GOD DID IT" for everything that cannot be answered scientifically? (even though it may be answered later in the future)

    Adrian Alvarado Well...you know...i may seem like an ass...but you are going to be totally fucked by any christian who sees this. im a christian, but i do happen to respect others belief.

    Markham Scott Coerced? Christianity doesn't force it's beliefs on you. You can always choose what to believe and what not. To me, everything created with specific design and purpose and a devil that's bent on bending people away from the truth of god sounds right to me. And you know what? The christian personality i've acquired through my upbringing has made me to be a decent (if not examplary) person of society

    Allen Sarkisyan You live in America and have your freedom to do whatever you please regarding your religion. I'm glad you respect other people's beliefs, now respect that I don't respect yours

    Markham Scott I'm patient, kind, long suffering, slow to anger. I don't curse profusely or in the sense of humour. I'm respectful, and only have the desire to give other people the hope of a better future to hang onto in this perilous world we now live in today.

    Allen Sarkisyan Christianity doesn't force beliefs? HAHAHAHAHAHA

    Allen Sarkisyan I'll just sit here waiting to burn in hell then

    Markham Scott Here's a fun fact: There is no hell

    Markham Scott Isn't that a bright prospect? to not dread the possibility of eternal suffering?

    Adrian Alvarado well...i dont know how to put this...you sir, are an ass. So enclosed in your own world you refuse to even respect others?

    Allen Sarkisyan OOOH how delightful, it's almost as an atheist I didn't know that already! Here's another fun fact: God is a bullshit idea. Substitute a unicorn and midgets for God and his disciples and the story is still believable to you isn't it?
    Adrian, respect is something given, not a right by birth.

    Markham Scott And if you feel like reading, here's a scripture in the bible to disprove the theory of hellfire. Ecclesiastes 9:5- "For the living are conscious tha they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all..."

    Adrian Alvarado but you disrespect others? is that given by birth?

    Markham Scott Let me ask you a question, if you think it's ridiculous to believe in god who created the earth, isn't it also ridiculous to believe that a unprecidented explosion in space of nothingness created a universe that was once just black vaccum, ...and that dust particles miraclously stopped their trajectories in space where there were no previous suns or other sources of gravity and heat and then a grouping of dust just happened to stop and form into a spherical shape in the exact perfection postion to create a likewise unprecidented ecosystem that was devoid of life that turned out to be the world, the solar system, and universe as we know it today?

    Allen Sarkisyan I think someone saying "let there be light" and magically create photons from nothing is ridiculous. Can it not be a flying spaghetti monster instead? Have you noticed that there have been a decline in pirates and near perfect correlation b...etween that and the rise of global warming? Can we just put one and one together and say that the death of a pirate makes the earth a warmer place? No, just putting two ideas that SEEM to work without any hard connections between them is ridiculous. What science says is that because of gravity , EM, and a few other forces that exist in the universe, dust particles can accumulate into a nebula and then a sun because gravity crushes the matter harder and closer until the atoms end up crushing each other so hard that you have atoms joining together and releasing the excess energy as radiation (sunlight)

    Allen Sarkisyan oh look, a god didn't need to make a star, so a universe can do that on it's own huh? SWEET. now take that idea further into the creation of water, simple cellular life forms, and go forward a billion years of smashing particles together and you'll eventually find one form of life that is called a HUMAN BEING.

    Allen Sarkisyan and all without "let there be assholes on earth" and there were assholes on earth

    Allen Sarkisyan ugh.. internet debates. fuck this i'm off to do something productive

    Markham Scott There are 'assholes' on earth because they've been disillusioned by a devil that's had countless years in the works of tricking mankind and angels alike. Also, without precidence, how can something just *pop* to life where there are no conditions to support it? (let alone spontaneous creation without creators...)

    Markham Scott And well, I hope this conversation has left you with something to think about =]. And productive at this time of hour that doesn't include sleep? I hope your stress isn't giving you isomnia

    Allen Sarkisyan I want to hate you so much Scott because I disagree with everything you say but I can never pass up good/persistent arguing buddies. +friend

    Markham Scott Sure, perhaps in future conversations I could I enlighten you more on how to have hopeful prospects on a future that you can make yours as well.



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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Antimony on Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:08 pm

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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Kornephoros on Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:39 pm

    Allen is an ass. Independently and separately from his (lack of) religious beliefs.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Kornephoros on Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:00 pm

    I also have to wonder, does Allen not listen to any music? He mustn't do, after slagging off musicians so.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:39 am

    Welp, Rids, while I may not share your convictions, your use of said convictions to troll that man were spot on and I applaud you for it. We do need to talk astrophysics some time. Razz

    Overall, good show, troll successful!! Trollface
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by okainio on Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:34 pm

    My considered opinion is thus: 1) Allen is an bitter cunthole. While I tenuously agree with his general philosophy in some points (i.e. a wizard did not create the universe and then turn his only son into a levitating zombie to vanquish evil), he is still a bitter cunthole.
    2) The bible was written by ancient Jewish trolls/priests to make the general populace do what they wanted. The book of Leviticus in particular was written by some almighty ancient troll.

    The maths behind atheism. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150281429097930&set=a.466130887929.263070.593047929&type=1&theater

    Ridley, you should read up on the theory behind the big bang before you refer to the universe beforehand as a black vacuum, and call it an unprecedented explosion. The theory behind the big bang fits in with general black hole theory (on a truly massive scale).

    Then claiming that people claim that particles stopped and clumped together in a previously flat universal landscape for no reason is also wrong. People know that they must have done it for a reason, but none of the theories can yet be supported by models or mathematical proofs. The word proof here should be very loosely used, as many things have been "proved" and when a more accurate model has come along, subsequently disproved by varying degrees.

    As I've said, there are many theories behind why they may have clumped together in certain areas, you can drop me a message on facebook anytime if you're interested in this stuff.

    Again, more and more advances are being made onto how life first evolved. One of the more compelling pieces of evidence that I can vaguely remember from not watching television whilst someone else was is basically this:-

    Life on earth is mostly made from complex carbohydrate lattices, lipid substructures and macrostructures, polymeric amino acid chains and nucleotide chains.

    These last 2 types of molecule will form naturally, from water or ice, or even methane ice (found in 99% of comets and a good proportion of asteroids), within a certain distance (about 5 AUs methinks me remembers) of a star of similar intensity to our sun. Throughout random movement inherent in every substance above absolute zero (-273 Celsius, -273.1 Centigrade, 0 kelvin) those molecules will then bump into each other via natural diffusion and form larger lattices which can then co-operate vaguely in similar ways to inorganic crystalline lattices such as blue diamonds can today. Once they start co-operating with a couple of other types of molecule, then you're most of the way to having a single celled organism and the ball is rolling.


    Don't take anything personally Riddle-me-diddle, just voicing an opinion not tainted by cuntholery opposing those views which I personally oppose.

    PS You're a Jehovah's witness? If your arm had to be amputated would you refuse a blood transfusion?
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Ridley on Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:53 am

    No offenses taken. =] complex carbohydrate lattices, lipid substructures and macrostructures, polymeric amino acid chains and nucleotide chains.
    Yes this is true. Let me ask you this: is it so irrational to believe that such amazing occurences weren't designed to be capable of such a thing? Much like the countless forms of life in the world, all unique in their own way. {i.e. the pad system on the gecko's feet and regenative capabilities of starfish)

    And yes, I would refuse blood transfusions.


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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by VindicatedDot on Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:01 pm

    B>rename to "JehovaDot" <3<3<3 Razz
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:20 pm

    Swat_Kats wrote:No offenses taken. =] Let me ask you this: is it so irrational to believe that such amazing occurences weren't designed to be capable of such a thing?

    In my own personal views, it is if there's no evidence. Hence why, unlike Okai, I am not an Atheist, I'm at this point an agnostic. I can't prove that God does or does not exist. I have no proof either way, so at this point I really don't think it matters. I have my own personal concept of what divinity is, but it's more like 'the force' than anything else. You will never believe exactly what I believe. In any event, what you believe isn't any of my business and I know when to mind my own, and I care not what my fellow humans believe concerning the supernatural so long as their beliefs don't impact my own life, liberty and property.

    Carl Sagan said it best, that the universe is amazing enough as it is.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by okainio on Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:17 pm

    Swat_Kats wrote: is it so irrational to believe that such amazing occurences weren't designed to be capable of such a thing? Yes. In my opinion. If they were designed to have happened as such then the God we have is less intelligent of rational design than my year 7 DT class. Obviosly with more power as my year 7 DT class didn't have a drill with a bit made of lightning, but, fucksakes the workmanship is fucking shoddy *-*

    And yes, I would refuse blood transfusions.
    If I die tomorrow and it turns out there was a God I still won't regret my actions in this life. I based my opinions and actions on all the evidence to hand and the church that I had to go to taught that God gave humans free will.

    The crusade against the Cathars in southern France, and the Crusades, are other reasons why believing in God working miracles through everyday things is no reason to believe in him. (Both in the holy land and the crusades to convert peoples by the might is right principle.) According to the bible Jesus smashed up the temple because a bunch of people were committing things that weren't even crimes in the temple. Centuries later in the name of God millions of people are slaughtered and God has not done anything about it.

    Epicurus said it first and the picture is in my profile pictures album on facebook, but the presence of the "unholy evil" in this world proves that no being worth worshiping as God exists.

    Even if you ended up like this guy? http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/471249-jehovah-s-witness-teenager-dies-after-refusing-blood-transfusion

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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DragonEmperor on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:28 pm

    DanontheMoon wrote:
    Swat_Kats wrote:No offenses taken. =] Let me ask you this: is it so irrational to believe that such amazing occurences weren't designed to be capable of such a thing?

    In my own personal views, it is if there's no evidence. Hence why, unlike Okai, I am not an Atheist, I'm at this point an agnostic. I can't prove that God does or does not exist. I have no proof either way, so at this point I really don't think it matters. I have my own personal concept of what divinity is, but it's more like 'the force' than anything else. You will never believe exactly what I believe. In any event, what you believe isn't any of my business and I know when to mind my own, and I care not what my fellow humans believe concerning the supernatural so long as their beliefs don't impact my own life, liberty and property.

    Carl Sagan said it best, that the universe is amazing enough as it is.
    Become a Jedi.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:54 am

    It's a legitimate religion. Even if I were a Jedi, though, I'd still end up like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR I - saying fuck the Jedi AND the Sith, and going off to pull a Henry David Thoreau by fucking off to my own little corner of the Galaxy.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Includer on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:17 am

    I'd have to go with Dan :V Basically the same.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DragonEmperor on Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:34 am

    DanontheMoon wrote:It's a legitimate religion. Even if I were a Jedi, though, I'd still end up like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR I - saying fuck the Jedi AND the Sith, and going off to pull a Henry David Thoreau by fucking off to my own little corner of the Galaxy.
    Do Jedi's believe in god?
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:59 am

    I think it's up to the individual practitioner.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Ridley on Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:25 pm

    okainio wrote: According to the bible Jesus smashed up the temple because a bunch of people were committing things that weren't even crimes in the temple. Centuries later in the name of God millions of people are slaughtered and God has not done anything about it.

    Even if you ended up like this guy? http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/471249-jehovah-s-witness-teenager-dies-after-refusing-blood-transfusion


    Said account as found in John 2: 13-25, the merchants in the temple were trying to overprice those coming to the temple simply to learn. They weren't permitted to set up shop there. After all, temples aren't a place for commerce now are they?
    Also, let's quote the scripture itself: "In answer Jesus said to them: 'break down this temple and in three days I will raise it up'. Therefore the jews said: 'this temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?'. But he was talking about the temple of his body" (john 2:19-21) This prophecy was fulfilled when he was killed on the stake and then ressurrected 3 days later. Not many people truly take the time to read and study the scriptures.

    And yes, even if I did end up like that guy. That's because I BELIEVE that death is not the end. That if I was to die in such a circumstance, my faith would reward me to resurrection in the new paradise earth. If not, well, I wouldn't be conscious to recall my short life regardless so I wouldn't regret it either. People say we all have to die sometime right? Well, it's my hope that I can have something better for myself and for others that I can share this information with that are willing to give ear. What good is a life without some sort of hope for the future right?





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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by manchester on Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:57 pm

    allen is a bitter cunt.
    that is all.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by okainio on Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:45 pm

    That isn't what it says in the bible I got for surviving until the age of 11 :V

    In my opinion hope for the future has to be tangible. There's a saying here "jam tomorrow" which is that if you promise people jam tomorrow, they work hard for it today. If you give them jam today then they just sit eating jam all day (nom). But jam the day after tomorrow doesn't work either. If people have stuff to get ready by monday, most people (except mothers) usually do it on sunday night, not on friday night.

    Anyway Ridley you're not going to convert me on the internet, mainly because you try to use the bible and in my opinion you might as well read me Spot the Dog, for it is about the same in terms of literacy of the writer and general intelligence, but Spot the Dog was based on a true story. I have read the bible, taken it in and thought about it (fucking religious schools ,,/,,) and I still came to this conclusion.

    I can see that I am not going to convince you on the internet either. Much as the guys who come to my house usually end up shouting at me that Squirrels don't do anything miraculous, if this were to carry on it would just become a flaming trollfest. Trollface


    But in my opinion you're part of one of the most dominating and autocratic totalitarian groups on Earth, and I would assume that in your opinion I'm doomed to non-existent unconsciousness forever.

    Apologies for the tautology.





    Last edited by okainio on Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Kornephoros on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:26 pm

    A state of non-rejection of the null hypothesis
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:26 am

    Maybe the original Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek is worth a read, so you can know what the original scripture really says. That's another thing that puts me off about religion, I can't read ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit, Pashtun or Assyrian and I can't imagine my life being dictated to me by a document I can't understand.

    If someone else wants to do so, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket.

    Noone knows what happens after you die, not Richard Dawkins, who's kind of a cunt himself, nor the Pope, nor the Sanhedrin, nor Pat Robertson, nor Mullah Omar. I'd kindly ask that people stop pretending that they do, and that they stop expecting me to pretend that I think they know. (Sad that Carl Sagan and Ayn Rand in fact DO know, and they aren't saying much. Sad ) I also find it somewhat irrational to have something as your goal in life something that will happen after you die. All of my personal goals in life are things that could physically be achievable. Own a video production studio. Go into space at least once. Live for a year in another country besides America. See places. Amass a certain quantity of material wealth. Employ people. Help Drive the market.

    As far as hope for the future, what I do for a living is part of that. I know that what I do will help save lives and spread better knowledge about the scientific facts of childbirth, and that makes me happy. After I'm dead I'll have contributed to a body of knowledge that is without a doubt pro-human. I believe in the future of the human race, and I want us to claim our real birthright - the solar system we inhabit. The heaven that matters to me is the one I can look up and see at night. Apocalypse, shmapocalypse, armageddon, shmarmageddon, imam madhi, shmimam shmadhi. We need to get off of this planet. Anything that I can do to help further that endeavor is my hope for the future put into action.

    I'll never try to convert anyone to anything, I don't care what people believe so long as they're decent and rational with me.

    Squirrels can INDEED do miraculous things, I've seen one grab a tomato three times the size of it's head in it's mouth, ninja up the side of the garage, roll the tomato like a katamari ball down the apex of the roof, grab it in it's jaws again and jump 10 feet to a tree limb and climb up the tree, tomato intact. Squirrels aren't amazing my ass. Whether they evolved, were created or were planned by some dimensional super-intelligence is of no consequence to me.

    What flavor of jam?
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Kornephoros on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:50 am

    I should like to think Carl Sagan hasn't let you know because he's busy having a well-deserved aethereal galavant through space and time.
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    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by okainio on Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:41 pm

    Damson jam. Hopefully damson flavoured, although I did once hear about turnip jam that was raspberry flavoured.
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    Ridley
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    Purple People Eater

    Posts : 386
    Join date : 2010-07-22
    Age : 25
    Location : Barrenland

    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by Ridley on Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:41 pm

    This conversation wasn't intended to troll (unlike the case with allen) nor was I seriously trying to 'convert' you to christianity, nor with anyone else reading this thread. I was asked/poked about concepts of my belief and I answered them to the best of my ability. Simple as that =]

    I understand that most are turned off by the very mention of religion and it's something I've learned not to get worked up about. I don't have anything to say about what you guys think of what I think of you based up off of my hopes for the future. All I ask is to be simply be left be and respected for my ideals. Unlike many warped examples prevelant today that have tainted the word religion, my beliefs do no promote the expansion and blessing of war (in gods name or not) and the lifestyle accompaning the "christian personality" are nothing but beneficial to me personally that help me in my non-theocratic dealings in life as well. I am a happy individual in my hope. Though it may seem irrational if not foolish, it is honestly the only thing that makes and keeps me at the best parts of the man you all know me as today.


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    okainio
    Unicorn
    Unicorn

    Posts : 1247
    Join date : 2009-12-27
    Age : 26
    Location : Tenterden. like u know where that is.

    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by okainio on Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:24 pm

    I can't believe Korne typed the word aethereal with a separate a and e.

    WHERE IS THE SAXON CHARACTER WE HAVE COME TO KNOW AND LOVE KORNE
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    DanontheMoon
    Unicorn
    Unicorn

    Posts : 2569
    Join date : 2009-06-02
    Age : 36
    Location : Some other game

    Re: You bitter bro?

    Post by DanontheMoon on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:25 pm

    That's the number one reason why I love you, Rids. Faaaaaabulous No homo tho.

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    Re: You bitter bro?

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